My Criticism Of The Concept Of Eretz Yisrael Options

[koroigetsuga]

Jews believe that God swt gave them Eretz Yisrael as a land to inhabit, and believe that because God swt gave them it, they have a right over it that precedes any other presence living there. This land is so important to them that according to Jewish law (halakha), some religious laws only apply to Jews living in the Land of Israel and some areas in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria (which are thought to be part of Biblical Israel). These include agricultural laws such as the Shmita (Sabbatical year); tithing laws such as the Maaser Rishon (Levite tithe), Maaser sheni, and Maaser ani (poor tithe); charitable practices during farming, such as pe'ah; and laws regarding taxation. Additionally according to some Jewish religious authorities, every Jew has an obligation to dwell in the Land of Israel, and may not leave except for specifically permitted reasons (e.g., to get married). There are also many laws dealing with how to treat the Land itself. So you see, the land itself is very important in Jewish beliefs, and explains their eagerness to get it back.

But a question no Jew can answer (or has ever been able to answer me yet) is exactly what was the land that God swt promised them?

If we look at this map:


We can see that in fact the Book of Numbers and Ezekial have contradictory borders for what the Land of Israel should be. And this is just one interpretative difference between two books in the Torah. There are other border contradictions as well such as the outline in Deuteronomy (which btw is by far the most fabricated part of the Torah).

So if the Torah contradicts itself on what constitutes the Land of Israel then what right do Jews have demanding muslims to give them this land; when they don't even have a concensus, as in they don't even agree with each other, on what the borders of that land should be?

They cannot blame us for the contradictions in the Torah, nor can they use the Torah as some sort of mirror into history to tell us what land was given to them by God swt when the Torah is littered with contradictions on what the borders of that land were in the first place.

Another problem with using the Torah to make claimants on that land, is that all biblical scholars agree that the vast majority of history recorded in the Torah was little more than the political propaganda of the Kings of Judea. This explains why the vast majority of Israeli archaeology has already debunked much of the history recorded in the Torah, and concluded that the lot of it are just a bunch of fabricated etiological tales. The most damning fruit of archaeology is ofcourse the fact that contrary to the claims of the Torah, Jews have NEVER inhabited all of the biblical land of Canaan; which further refutes anybody wishing to use the Torah as proof of ownership of that land.

Any questions?

This post has been edited by koroigetsuga: Oct 14 2008, 12:45 PM

[حسین عباس]

what difference does it make? they have all that land anyways...

[Shubber]

doesnt make a difference.

just more proof that it doesnt 'belong' to them.

[miss.abbas]

We can see that in fact the Book of Numbers and Ezekial have contradictory borders for what the Land of Israel should be.

Why not find out which book is more authentic?

[koroigetsuga]

Why not find out which book is more authentic?

It doesn't work that way. They are both part of the Torah

Its like you telling me which surahs in the Quran are more authentic. All surahs are part of the Quran, so each is just as valuable as the next. The same rule applies to the Torah

The Torah is basically divided into 5 parts: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy but all of them are seen by Jews to be the literal word of God (despite the internal contradictions, grammatical errors and scientifc absurdities contained there in)

[thenlightenment]

they don't want to decide on the borders because it doesn't matter....the more land for them, the better.
thanks for the details by the way...your new threads have been very informative

[nobody]

Walaikumassalam Koroi,

I agree with thenlightenment regarding the informative nature of your posts.

I had the following questions:
1) Do all Jews believe in the promised land? The following website leads me to believe that this what only the Zionist Jews believe (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm). Can u please elaborate if you have more information?
2) If God(s.w.t) gave Jews the promised land, then they should not have to fight for it. The fact that they did not have it and had to fight for it implies that God(s.w.t) did not give it to them. One would have to logically conclude that since they had to fight for the land, either God (s.w.t) does not have the power to give it to them, or His promise is incorrect or that they right was taken away or that they never had the right. Do you see my point? Do you know how a Jew may answer this.

Wassalam

[amTul]

Why not find out which book is more authentic?

The Torah is basically divided into 5 parts: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy but all of them are seen by Jews to be the literal word of God (despite the internal contradictions, grammatical errors and scientifc absurdities contained there in)

Is that the old testament in the bible?

This post has been edited by amTul: Oct 14 2008, 10:30 PM

[koroigetsuga]

Is that the old testament in the bible?

Yes generally speaking the so-called old testament is considered the same as the Torah

ofcourse when you get dirty with it you realize that in fact there are discrepancies between the christian version (Greek Septuagint) and the Jewish version (Tanakh)

Today we have 4 Torahs (Old Testament) when you think about it. They are the Masoretic text (which the Jews use), Samaritan Torah (which the Samaritans use), the Greek Septuagint (which the christians like to believe they use) and the version in the Dead Sea Scrolls. All versions have discrepancies with one another, for example the Samaritans in their version have the sacrifices to be carried out on Mount Gerazim, where as the Masoretic version has them being ordered to do it on the location of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. This btw is a humongous difference because the sacrifices are what literally half of the 613 mitzvohs are about.

Anyhow, the rabbis themselves in history have recognized that the current Torah has undergone alteration at the hands of the scribes. This is called tikkun Soferim. What they did is that in certain places they felt the text needed "correction" to avoid what they considered to be theological problems, so they'd substitute different words/expressions of their choosing. From our perspective, this is clear 'tahrif' of the text. That said, I (personally) prefer to look to the possible overall integrity of the text, at least in its core (though that's a preference, I don't claim it as a solid position). But there isn't a way to deny that the text has undergone changes as such.

Hope that answers your question.

This post has been edited by koroigetsuga: Oct 14 2008, 11:35 PM

[koroigetsuga]

they don't want to decide on the borders because it doesn't matter....the more land for them, the better.
thanks for the details by the way...your new threads have been very informative

Jazak Allah Khair sister!

[koroigetsuga]

I agree with thenlightenment regarding the informative nature of your posts.

Thanks bro

I had the following questions:
1) Do all Jews believe in the promised land? The following website leads me to believe that this what only the Zionist Jews believe (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm). Can u please elaborate if you have more information?

Yes all Jews believe in the promised land. But majority Jewish opinion always was that they would get the land back and the temple restored only when the messiah comes. Today this has changed since Israel was made by zionists aka secular Jews. You see real Jews remained in exile (which they believed was a divine punishment from God swt), where as secular Jews (zionists) who don't adhere to Torah made the idea of returning to that homeland. After the creation of Israel slowly the Jews changed their opinion in order to support and live in Israel. Of course there remain groups like the Haredi who remain loyal to the original Jewish opinion, which was that until the messiah comes they are still under exile.

Interestingly the Torah has some prophecies related to this whole banishment issue that clearly are false. For example AMOS 9:14,15 claims that after the Babylonian exile they would never be uprooted again, but indeed through history we learn they were were uprooted again in ca. 130 CE following the Bar Cochba revolt.

That said, there is something important to bare in mind. The Arabs had control of and residence in Jerusalem for close to 13 centuries, which is as long a time or more than that for which the Bani Israel had sovereignty over the area from the conquest of Canaan in ca 1250 CE to the Roman invasion of 70 CE. The Arabs have just as much historical tie to the area as the Jews. So the idea that Jews have explicit right because their ancestors lived there God knows how long ago is ludicrous.

And here is the most important part. Many Jews are descendants from later converts (ever wonder about all those blond haired Jews...). Jews had largely already left prior to any Muslims coming in there, and no, it wasn't because the Romans kicked them all out. That's a distortion of history, Jews had been leaving for other lands for some time, such as to Egypt (Alexandria) and other areas, not out of persecutions, but for the same reason so many people in the "third world" leave their homelands today, economic opportunities. From what I recall, population estimates indicate that prior to the Roman sack, the majority of Jews were already living outside of Palestine. Even after the Roman sack of Jerusalem, there was still a Jewish presence in Palestine after that. How can the descendants (thousands of years later) of people who voluntarily left, or whose ancestors were never there in the first place, lay any claim to the land today?


And ofcourse if a Jew read the above paragraph he would accuse me of historical revisionism, which is why I have made sure to get my information from a source even they can't deny:

"Writing in 1971, Salo W. Baron estimated the Jewish population within the borders of the Roman empire at just under 7 million, with slightly more than a million others living outside its borders, mostly to the east; the Jewish population of Palestine he placed at not higher than 2.5 million (Encyclopaedia Judaica [New York: Macmillan, 1972], vol. 13, p. 871). Paul Johnson writes “Though it is impossible to present accurate figures, it is clear that by the time of Christ the diaspora Jews greatly outnumbered the settled Jews of Palestine: perhaps by as many as 4.5 million to 1” (A History of Christianity [New York: Athenaeum, 1976], p. 12). Subsequent estimates generally fall between these extremes. Thus, Wayne Meeks in The First Urban Christians (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1983) estimates 1 million Jews in Palestine, 5 million to 6 million in the diaspora."

FROM: Encyclopaedia Judaica and Yale University Press

2) If God(s.w.t) gave Jews the promised land, then they should not have to fight for it. The fact that they did not have it and had to fight for it implies that God(s.w.t) did not give it to them. One would have to logically conclude that since they had to fight for the land, either God (s.w.t) does not have the power to give it to them, or His promise is incorrect or that they right was taken away or that they never had the right. Do you see my point? Do you know how a Jew may answer this.

Here's the problem. Both Judaism and Islam agree on the circumstances of the original two banishments. The Jews were banished from Israel TWICE because they wouldn't stop worshipping other gods besides Yahweh. Plus the Talmud records that additionally the Jewish tribes had endless baseless hatred and infighting with each other that further added to the reasons for their banishment.

In fact right after Sinai happened, despite all the miracles that were performed for them, the Yahud went back to polytheism. We can Musa deal with this problem right when his death was approaching in the Torah:

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death **YE WILL BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT**, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through **THE WORK OF YOUR HANDS**. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)" Here the Jews' hands are predicted to cause so much corruption (including corruption in the Bible). Jeremiah 8:8 below which came approximately 826 later confirmed the Bible corruption.
"How can you say we (the Jews) are wise and the law of the Lord is with us, when in fact the **FALSE PEN OF THE SCRIBES** has made it into a lie? (Jeremiah 8:8 (Revised Standard Version))"

Even after two hundred years after Sinai happened the canaanite religion and levantine cults still had sway over the Israelite and Judahite populace. The Tanakh shows this clearly and even in Solomon's Temple there were pagan idols until the time of King Hezekayah and Josaiah who tried desperately to abolish these abominations. Even when Jerusalem was destroyed in the 6th century we read in the Book of Jeremaiah of Judahite women complaining that when they worshipped "The Queen of Heaven" everything went well in Judah! It was not until after the destruction of the first Temple that Ezra and others were finally to make Judah overwhelmingly monotheists.
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Even Christian Bible (the non corrupted part aka the non-Paulinian sections) record Isa saying this to the Jews:

Acts 5
9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

He was killed because he told the Jews exactly what they had done. Killed the prophets and the Righteous One.

This is him talking directly to the scribes:

Acts 7
51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."
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So you see the land was given to them. But they betrayed their covenant with God swt on the parameters of that ownership, because they kept indulging in polytheism. Hence God swt banished them.

One of Jesus' key roles was as a sort of County Sheriff, delivering a final eviction notice to the Jews of Palestine.

[koroigetsuga]

Damm I can't believe I wrote so much. LOL. Usually I only type this much for essays LOL. And to think I am still holding back because I don't want to go crazy writing endlessly about this stuff LOL.

But as they say; knowledge is best left shared, not monopolized. I hope I answered all your questions guys

This post has been edited by koroigetsuga: Oct 15 2008, 01:00 AM

[amTul]

Thanks bro =]

[miss.abbas]

But as they say; knowledge is best left shared, not monopolized. I hope I answered all your questions guys

Shukran Bro koroigetsuga, very informative.

[koroigetsuga]

The land, according to Genesis in the Bible, was promised not only to the Jews, but the children of Abraham in general, which includes the Arabs, thus further reducing so-called Jewish ownership of it.

[thenlightenment]

^oh thats new...haven't heard that before....good to know. thanks.

[koroigetsuga]

LET'S COMPARE MOSES' LAST WORDS TO THE JEWS, WITH MOHAMMED'S LAST WORDS TO THE MUSLIMS:

Moses says to the Jews in his farewell address in Deuteronomy 31: (you read the whole thing here. I am going to reproduce only the relevant text since the whole thing is long):

27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

YIKES! One could see that as a warning for what they have become today, since the reference is to where they are headed in the future. Emphasis on the "after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt..."

Now compare that with what Mohammed says to the muslim ummah in his farewell address:

O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that he will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligations shall henceforth be waived. Your capital is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that i waive is that arising from the murder of Rabiah ibn al Harithibn.

O People, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calender in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope of that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste. O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belogs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people.

Btw I'm not posting these sermons for show. Clearly there is a deeper message behind them. For the Jews it is too late, and Moses prophecized them becoming utterly corrupt, where as Mohammed gave a far more positive farewell address which implies that there indeed is hope for the ummah, since unlike Moses we were left a final message of hope rather than a sermon of us becoming "utterly corrupt".

Even more interesting is the part where Mohammed says "and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly". This is reference away from his own generation, and is instead pointing to the future generations who would hear his message, so in a nutshell he is talking to us and those to follow after us and implying that perhaps latter generations will better head his words. So indeed there is hope for us

This post has been edited by koroigetsuga: Feb 11 2009, 03:37 AM

[koroigetsuga]

The Future of Jewish Demographics:

http://www.threejews.net/search/label/demographics

[koroigetsuga]

I made a note about this thread on FB, so I guess I should also add this part:

Even Jesus/Isa in the Gospels (New Testament) besides threatening an impending punishment on the Israelites for their rejection of him; called their religious leaders and scribes all sorts of names; "you wicked generation of adulterers", "you snakes", "serpents", "brood of vipers" to "sons of hell", calling them "hypocrites" and "blind fools" in public, told his followers to "Leave them; they are blind guides", compared them to "whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean", "full of hypocrisy and wickedness" compared them to "unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it", and so forth.

When one of the pharisees objected with "when you say these things, you insult us" Jesus didn't step back and pull a flower out of his pocket and tell them "i love you, my dear enemies" he continued his truthful admonition until he finished with the terrible sentence that "this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world".

One of Jesus' primary goals was to act as a country sheriff, delivering a final note of eviction to the Jewish people, hence why 40 years after Jesus began his occultation, the Jews were banished from Eretz Yisrael, beginning the second exile.